1# - Turning Challenges into Opportunities: Anj's Path Through Divorce, South Asian Stigma, and Being a Successful Content Creator

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[00:00:08] Anj: to have you here. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Sian. Like, honestly, I'm genuinely honored and congratulations on starting the podcast. Oh, thank you so

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And I've known Ange, not on a real personal level, but I, I feel like we've known each other for quite some time because I think I used to follow you back in when I was a wedding planner. Oh my days! That, that now rings a bell. I remember you from those days, and I just feel like, oh my God, like you've grown so much as a person, as an Asian woman, as a really successful content creator.

So just take us back a little bit actually, just a little bit, and how did this all come about? Like how did Anjali's lookbook all come about?

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And they were like, you need to, you know, like, do an Instagram for this. Like, this would be really useful. And also, when I got married, there wasn't a lot of, like, blogs about weddings that were helping. And I was the first girl in my family to get married, the first granddaughter. And I mean, and the wedding was, just putting out there, was on time, brilliant, no faults.

and everyone enjoyed it. And I realized that actually maybe I could help like anybody else that was in my position that doesn't really have elders that know the traditions. I had to search for the things themselves. So essentially that's kind of like how Anjali's Lookbook was born. And I'm quite a creative person and I wasn't able to teach dance, which is what I'd been doing for 15 years before that as much.

So I needed something that was my own, that was kind of like, creative outlet. And the aim always of Angie's Lookbook was to help, like whether it's help with an outfit, help with what to wear when you go into a certain function or, you know, bride to be, that kind of a thing. So Angie's Lookbook was literally born on a whim.

ad your book? blog. So it was: 2017

[00:02:30] Sharn: So we got married the same year, actually 2015. Yeah. Cause I used to have an Asian wedding blog as well. So just talk to us a little bit about that because, obviously like you, this is very, very well documented that obviously you got, you had a divorce.

And I think I think it's so inspiring that, like, I remember you were one of the first people that were talking about it online, and this was like a good few years ago. And I remember just looking at your profile and thinking, Oh my God, like, she's so brave and so courageous because she's actually openly sharing, like, her marriage didn't work out.

And I think in our culture, like, there's just so much stigma attached to when things don't work out or there's like a divorce or there's like a marriage breakdown. So. So like, talk us a little bit, obviously whatever you feel comfortable, but because I feel like there's so many, I feel like, because I coach obviously a lot of Asian women, I know that a lot of Asian women stay in marriages because they're not happy, or they're toxic or they suffer from narcissistic abuse or the power of money is with the man, because they're not financially independent to leave the marriage.

And unfortunately, like they do stay in marriages. Equally, I've got so many clients that I work with. I feel like now, like Asian women are just not putting up with bullshit anymore. Like we are realizing that we are worthy of more, we do do not need to put up with potentially what our parents and grandparents put up with, whether it's toxic family members, you know, husbands that aren't, you know, on the same, same wavelength or on the same growth journey.

So like, talk us a little bit through like that process and like what that looked like.

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Yeah. but what we didn't get to do is maybe live together, necessarily. And a lot of it came down to, I've, I lived by myself even before I got married, so I lived by myself, I moved back home to my parents just before I was about to get married, spend a bit of time with them, save money obviously because you've got a wedding to pay for.

And then, the entirety of my whole marriage, I lived with my in laws, which, you know, was good at parts but also is extremely difficult and the last straw sort of came to me when I realised that I wasn't myself. I didn't recognize myself in a mirror. I was always frustrated. I was always, I was very angry.

Yeah. And I couldn't really understand why I was so angry. I was also, I had a lot of feeling from being scared. Like there was a, and people take this always the wrong way as in, oh, was there physical abuse? No, never. That's not what I'm talking about. There's a, there's an unshakable core that when you feel unsafe inside of yourself, it comes out in like different manners, which obviously I've learned about afterwards.

But there was a lot of factors that contributed. I like too that, you know, my, my ex husband, had a kidney transplant from my mother, for example, for the first year that we were married. That put a lot of pressure on marriage and also it put pressure on all those relationships, on all those bonds, you know, daughter to mother, daughter to daughter in law, mother in law to son in law, like it put a lot of things into perspective, into different pressures.

So those had to kind of, You know, those had a little bit to do with it. I, I wanted my own freedom of living in my own home and that was discussed prior to being married, but maybe wasn't the way that was going to end up. And, you know, that caused a lot of problems and don't get me wrong. There's always compromises in marriages, but essentially I, I turned around and in all honesty, I was like, I don't think I can have children in this situation.

I can't imagine a future of having children with this person. Yeah, doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, but there was a lot of sort of, there was a lot of toxicity and I wasn't even seeing it. I didn't actually see the toxicity or any narcissistic abuse till after. So it wasn't, that's the reason I left.

y probably at the back end of: 2019

Yeah, pretty much. Four and a half, I'd say years. I think by the time the divorce came through it's like five and a half, six years, because it also happened all during sort of when COVID's about to, sort of, kick in. And it was a decision that I didn't make lightly. It's not, it's not a decision you make overnight, but I felt like there was no way out.

Like when you feel like trapped, there's no, there's absolutely not no way out. And I, luckily I do have my own job. Like I, I could stand on my own two feet. Did I have all the savings in the world to do this? No. Did I probably think it through? No. And I'm kind of glad I probably didn't because the more sometimes you think, the more you talk yourself out of something.

Yeah. So yeah, I suppose I can't always, Pin it down to like a certain point like one thing like one thing. I don't ever think when it comes to divorce It's just one thing. Yeah, it's a build up of things and you know I see it from so many women that already know the answer to the question of should I get divorced?

Yeah, but continue to stay because they don't Understand, you know, whether it's to have children, I don't, I don't want my children to be, to suffer, but in the end, isn't it better that they have two healthy parents that can actually individually give them everything, then have two parents that are completely utterly miserable, because also what, what are you, you know, showing your children at the end of the day?

And this was a bit, I was a bit like, why am I going to show my kids? Yeah, if it's such an unhealthy marriage. And the worst thing is on the surface, My marriage looks perfect because I was married into a very well to do family. I lived in a beautiful home. Can't complain about that. It was a beautiful home, more so than anyone else could probably live in.

I was traveling once a month, pretty much. So on the outskirts, it's what more could I want for? Yeah. So, but there was no respect. There was no acceptance of who I was as a person. So Yeah, and sometimes you have to realize that.

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[00:08:45] Anj: Yes and no is the answer. my mum's always been supportive from the beginning. She's a, she's an incredible woman. I mean, to just give up her own kidney to her own son Yeah, I was gonna say, that is incredible. She, she's an incredible woman. My dad, who's more from the India side, as Naomi says, my mum's like brought up here.

My dad is from India. So like, you know, you know, they barely met each other before they got married to each other. So my dad, maybe less so because he found it really, really difficult. Have they support, has the support increased as the process was increasing? Yes, but also I didn't move home when I got divorced.

I, so me and my ex husband had actually decided at this point that we were going to move out together anyway. So we were actually living in a flat and that's when like it kind of maybe all kind of broke down. But I remained in that flat whereas he went back home, which was only around the corner anyway, but I never went home to my parents.

And I think that's, I could then take the support when I was and when I needed it, rather than it being put on you and not having that choice. You already feel when you're going through that, when you're going through this process and no one can make you feel otherwise. It is just part of it. You feel like a failure.

Yeah. Whether it's to yourself, whether it's to the world, whether it's to your parents, most of all to yourself, you're already dealing with that. Then the next step happens, I've left my parents down. The next step is I've let maybe everybody on the outside down. Yeah. There's, there's so many, and there's also a grief process, like you are grieving.

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[00:10:14] Anj: An end, you know, what you thought might be your, like I said, I didn't step into my marriage thinking this is how, that it will end. Yeah. So you grieve like all that process, but my dad really wasn't very supportive at the beginning and on the odd occasion, to be completely honest now, I still have to hear about it.

Yeah. sometimes more of a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes less of a joke. Yeah. my mum, you know, I think the hardest person to tell was my mum. Because I had to say to her, so the person that you gave your kidney to is not a person I want to be with. Yeah, that's so difficult. Her response is, well, if you're not happy, I'm not going to be happy, so you do what you need.

I didn't give that kidney for you, I gave it because he needed it. Yeah. And that's that. So, I mean, My dad couldn't get his head around it. I'll be honest with you, me and my dad have a very strained relationship anyway. So, for him it was probably more difficult because that word divorce, especially coming from that side, like even when I go back to India, they have, they've, they accept my divorce, but they often say divorce doesn't happen in our household or over here.

Yeah. Like it's not acceptable here. Yeah. It's acceptable. in the land that you lot live in. It doesn't happen over here. Like, it's not an acceptable point. Yeah. so I think he, my dad was very much torn between his, this sea mentality, his Indian mentality and watching out for his child. and I think he is still very hurt by it, more so that he feels like he couldn't protect me.

He feels like he, he didn't get his say, which is true. He didn't. You know, if it was up to him, he'd probably want to go show my in law, I don't know, something, but he didn't get to do that. They always think that they, like, can get together and solve it. They can fix it. Yeah,

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And I just remember, like. I just remember like my mum being so upset and like, it's just, they can't cope with the shame.

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That was fine. Like once my, and then the iconic thing that made my dad turn was he actually said to me because you don't understand how, how, how I feel, how me and your mum feel, how we feel in this situation. I went, you're right. I don't because. I have no idea how I feel myself. Yeah. And when you can't ask me to understand how you're feeling when I haven't comprehended my own.

And it was a really toxic environment. Like, You know, and when my dad started to find out, like, the level of toxicity, I think he felt sad and he wanted to be a protective dad and probably go and bash their faces in, but I couldn't do that, so I think, like, a lot of that was also his pent up aggression for his child going through a lot, because I didn't, I don't really tell my parents, like, the traits of what was going on in the house, because it wasn't just my ex husband that was narcissistic, I figured out afterwards this was actually his experience.

The family? Well, I say family, most probably the parents. Like, most of, I mean, my mother in law and I didn't really sort of get, I don't really sort of understand that myself. Yeah. I used to think like behaviours or the way I was treated, oh that's just normal, that's just what you do, that's just their household, that's the way things happen.

But actually they're not normal and you don't realise that because you are also, when you get married into a situation where you live in someone's home, you're in someone else's house. Yeah. That might be their rules, their way of managing things. Yeah. I also moved two hours away from my parents, which a lot of us, you know, Like, you know, Asian women, we do do that, you know, we move out of our safety net into someone else.

And what I started to realize, I was like, or something I've said often, I've said it on my platform is, you know, when you get married, you have to adjust to all the people in that household. They only have to adjust to one with the safety net of what they already have. So yes, it's difficult for everybody.

It can't be

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[00:13:55] Anj: You could have another stranger in your home either.

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you know, he's such an incredible man, but I, I remember like, just, it was just, you're right. Like the whole moving out thing, like I moved like two and a half hours for my parents. And then I really had to compromise, like, you know, some weekends I'd want to see my friends and it's like, no, we've got this like family thing to go to.

And it's like, almost like you do have to change so much. And because no one's really like told you like how it's meant to be, It's really difficult. And then I think for me, like, I think I was a massive people pleaser and I ended up burning out and getting health issues. Not because, yeah, not because like my indoors were horrible or anything, but you're

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Yeah, so there, I always thought of it as in I'm there representing my parents, my family, my upbringing. Yeah. And there is a lot of that that we carry around like on the side. But I think. Like you said, there's some, some people will give you that pressure to do that. Some of it will come from ourselves and that's maybe, like, not recognized.

And I think, I think most, women when they get married probably do feel like, I will still say, I think the first year of my marriage was incredible. Like it was great. But also because I probably wasn't looking at stuff the way I probably should have been looking at stuff. And hindsight is a beautiful thing, but you, you take it as is.

And I also think everybody wears a mask until that point. You're all still adjusting. And especially with, with narcissists, they wear a mask until they drop it or they get called out. So that's also one of the things. And whether you have lovely in laws or not so lovely in laws, and at that point I had lovely in laws.

It's still hard because you are not in that safety net of what you were used to and the people you were used to or, you know, the, the, the duvet you were used to that you'd climb in and find that comfort like

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Yeah. Of course your safety net is from scratch

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Yeah. And it's the impact of that. That is not taking, if that's not seen by, by the people that are meant to support you or that you're doing this for, then that's where it becomes difficult.

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Like I've seen this show of my clients when they, like when their mothers, when they're like daughter in laws, when they're wives. And I think especially for me, it was just the guilt.you know, I could just say no, like I'd say to my mate in North, you know, I'm not coming this weekend, like, and they'd be fine with it, but I would feel so guilty.

I'd be like, Oh my God. And even now, like, I found myself doing it the last week. my mum's in Pakistan and my brother and my dad was staying with me for a little bit. And like, for whatever reason, they had to go back, home. And they, I think they wanted to, because they wanted to have their own space, right?

Can't beat your own space. Yeah, and they were like, more than happy to go. And I was like, oh my god, I was saying to Tab, I feel so guilty that like, they're not, because my mum was like, you know, keep, keep them with you. Because obviously my dad had health issues last year. She was saying, I'll make sure they stay with you a couple of weeks, but they were like ready to go back after like five days.

But I just felt so guilty. And I was saying to dad, I feel so bad. And he was like, honestly, just don't. So coming on to narcissistic abuse, and obviously I think both of us are very self aware, so we know what that is, but for anyone that doesn't know what it is, how could it be showing up in their life?

And this doesn't have to be through kind of partners or in laws, it could just be like friends or family members. Oh yeah, I've seen it in friends.

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I'm an empath, for example, so I'm people pleaser. Like I want people to be happy. if they're happy, I'm happy, you know, that kind of thing. Find it really hard to say no, because I feel I might be letting somebody down. Like a narcissist, I'm a narcissist. can feed off that. So you, I, I am naturally prone to attract them, whether it's friends, whether it's like partners, whether it's in laws, you know what I'm saying?

I'm, I'm very much, but it's, it's now understanding and attracting it. Like my current partner, Alex, it's a complete and utter opposite. Like he's not like that at all. And I'm super, I'm super, super grateful for him about that. And actually he's probably helped me a lot in seeing like a lot of this. So I suppose the way it can show up is if somebody questions like your reality, can be one way.

So if you, if you tell them you're upset and they flip it onto them, so they have a victim mentality. So, and I'm not saying that we're all prone to having victim mentality. I had a victim mentality this weekend where I felt really sorry for myself, for example. It's not that, it's where they constantly, it's, it's, It's you feeling sorry for them constantly.

It's them that's being impacted. And, you know, I'll, I'll give, I'll give a small example. Maybe, you know, my mother in law said to me that it was actually really insulting, but because I told her I felt really insulted by it, she got upset and she cried. So it turned up on their self. So it turned up on their self.

Or if you sort of said like, but this is what you said, but I didn't mean it like that. This is just how you're perceiving it. So putting it all back onto you. Yeah. Having. Somebody that has a self important, like we all, we all have a little bit of narcissism. Say, you know, we all get dressed in the morning to, to look nice for, you know, for other people think we look nice.

Like there's, there's that, but there's being narcissistic. You, if you have a question, whether you are it or not, you're probably not it. Yeah. Because you're self-aware enough, but it's not, it's not really having any emotions. It's not being

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[00:19:51] Anj: it's. It's practicing empathy without having the depth of empathy.

So, pretending, if that makes sense. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you can't actually feel anything. Real narcissists don't really ask for love either. They don't really feel very much. And you kind of, they can be quite cold. Yeah. And they can be quite ruthless. Yeah. So, I mean, look, there's different elements of it and there's a whole spectrum of it, and I'm, and I'm no expert, I'm just sort of learning gaslighting is, is part of somebody that might be sort of a narcissistic, you know, trait is, is gaslighting.

Yeah. You know that, that kind of thing. Making you feel. That you are not important, or you have They have superiority. Yeah. Like the superiority complex a little bit. Yeah. So they're far more superior than you. Yeah. So none of your feelings matter as much as them or what's going on that, you know, all these sort of things will kind of like build up.

So there, there's, there's a lot of that. Like, they know what they're doing if they've, if they've done something to hurt you, but we'll pretend that they don't. Yeah. And it's, it's quite hard to decipher sometimes. Yeah. and it's taken me a long time and actually I didn't realize I've had a numerous amount of, when I've looked back on the history, I've had numerous amount of, Narcissistic relationships, whether it's been friendships or relationships themselves.

and I've, I've not realized that to some extent, like, that's my dad, he's not a narcissist, but he has narcissistic tendencies, you know, if you, if you pull him up on something, Oh yeah, I'm just a bad person. Yeah, it's like, that's not what I said. Like, that's also not kind of what I said. so there's like tendencies and there's people that are.

If that makes sense. It depends on where on the spectrum somebody might necessarily sit.

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Like, did you have that? Was there a moment where you felt like, oh, like a real breakdown and then comes like the breakthrough? Or do you feel like it wasn't really like that? It was more kind of like gradual. And then, then you were like, Oh no, I lost the plot.

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Oh, I mean, like, for me, I think I, I, I actually fell into depression. Oh, wow. Quite badly. And, and, and the thing is, you know, the divorce going through, did I feel elated? Yes, some parts of you does. Yeah. Like, it really does. Like, it feels like a weight's been lifted. And I can't, I can't really describe that because, That's a really hard concept because you feel elated and you feel deflated at the same time.

It's really difficult. But I think for me, the reason I probably lost the plot a little bit as well, and I fell into really deep depression and now I can be quite open about it. And I, you know, I wasn't probably honest with myself at the time that that's what it was. And it was only until my manager was like, you need to go and see somebody.

ly it was near sort of end of: 2019

my musty is like my second mom, like in our family, like my musty's like a second mom. So it was, you know, I, I, I, I changed Shivani's diapers, you know, like or her nappies, as you would say. So I lost her. And then lockdown came in March, and I work for the NHS. Oh wow, I never knew that. So, I have a full time job, so I'm, I'm, at that point I was a product manager for, a drug that's IV fluids, which is predominantly used in every single hospital by every single patient, particularly COVID patients.

Yeah. And my work life balance all of a sudden went to like a standard eight hour day to a 16 hour day. Yeah. Immediately overnight because we were the sole suppliers of, of, of sorting out the drugs for the NHS. So in the midst of, going through a divorce, I was living by myself. We were on lockdown. Oh God.

We had, I lost Shivani. Yeah. Oh, it wasn't easy. Yeah. Yeah. Like it, and I think all those things combined for the divorce was enough and a divorce is probably one of the hardest things whilst also having lost somebody, par maybe, you know, a few other things I can imagine in the world, you know, that I don't even beg to mention is difficult as it is.

But combined with all of those, I wasn't able to cope.

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And I've seen close family members go through this as well. And there might be listeners now, like they're saying, obviously now we're in like the worst place ever in terms of mental health. Like suicide is the biggest killer in the UK for young men. So I'm not

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[00:24:56] Sharn: Yeah, it's just, and obviously with the rise of social media as well, everything's kind of fueling everything.

how did you like manage to pull yourself out of that?

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Like, and, and to look at her, you wouldn't know. Yeah. She's the happiest woman you'll ever see. Yeah. so it's not necessarily that, you know. You sit there and you display like specific symptoms. Yeah. It's the sheer hopelessness. Yeah. That gets you. Yeah. For me, it was not sleeping. I wasn't, I wasn't sleeping either.

Like I was, I was really struggling, but yeah. You have two choices. To me, and that, that's how I ended up having to look at it and that's probably how it was presented to me. I have two options. You can either choose to drown and continue to stay where you are and choose to drown. Or you can kick as quickly as possible and, and, and at least paddle to keep your head above water.

Yeah. Right? And either one of the, both of those are going to be difficult. I have to look at myself as to what can I do for myself? It sounds really silly, but it's kicking yourself. Yeah. Like I had to look at myself and be like, For, for example, I know exercise, like training, I've trained in the gym for years, you know, I did sports science at university, sports is a big part of my life.

Yeah. I don't want to go to the gym when you feel, when I feel like you don't want to go to the worst thing you can actually do. And the worst thing is this point, there was no gyms open, it's lockdown, there's no gyms open. But the thing is, once you start to realize that your state of your mind is in your own control.

Yeah. You are in charge, I have no, like, I can't sit there blaming my ex-husband for the rest of my life. No. Yeah. It's, it's probably partially why I'm, I am where I am, but I, I can't sit there blaming him for the rest of my life. There. There was also a point, you know, I had to make a decision, do I take antidepressants?

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[00:26:53] Anj: absolutely can them. It's, it's not the easiest decision to make either. Like, I was probably confronted with it for about six months before I decided it, and.

I went for a period. I was just calling my happy pills. And, you know, at this point also, you know, I was, I was talking to, starting to get to know Alex, you know, my current partner. And he was like, you need to, I know my friend said it's like, you need to stop calling them your happy pills. They don't make you happy.

And the way my GP once actually said it to me, he was like, What, when you have a cut, what do you do? Put plaster on it? Yeah. And he was like, right, so what are you doing with your, your, your brain's bleeding? Yeah. you going to do? He was like, your antidepressants act like a plaster. Yeah. They, they, they, they allow you to take a step back and, and view, like give you a break from it being, I know, I know the viewers or the listeners won't be able to see, but imagine, you know, having blinkers on like this, it allows you to move the blinker slightly further back.

Yeah. So it doesn't feel as dark. And that's essentially what it was. I think that was part of it. Me, me starting to realize I'm in control. Like, it's up to me. It started off with, you know, you've got to go for a walk. If you don't go for a walk, you don't get that fresh air. Like, go for five minutes. Like, okay, you're not going to want to do it.

Like, just, just go outside. And I know it's easier said than done, but it's almost, it was a small things. The smallest of things, like, there were some days I'd actually congratulate myself for brushing my damn ass hair. Yeah. Because you brushed your hair today. Lovely. Then there'd be days I could absolutely function and be so productive and still feel absolute emptiness, like, out of it.

Yeah. Giving yourself a break and understanding, like, but what's triggering it, like, also taking it back and understanding, like, it took me a long time to then sit down and try to figure out things, like, what's causing this, like, why do I feel empty, you know, what is it? That's the hard part. It's actually making a change to your life and actually looking at yourself, that's actually really difficult.

Yeah. Like, what is my contributing factors to this? Just continuously saying, what is my upbringing, it's my marriage, it's my this, it's my job, it's my Okay.

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Yeah. Like, when you identified your emptiness, what did you do? Can you remember, like, what you did straight after that?

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Yeah. In a day. So for a whole month I did one thing, sometimes it was painting my nails, you know, sometimes it was, I'm going to have that second chocolate, like doing that one thing that wasn't, it wasn't the same thing of, and it wasn't like a necessarily like a short term gratification. Like, you know, I don't want to go, I was like, honestly, maybe I'm, I'm a very logical person.

I was like, Oh, alcohol will take it away. But I'm a hangover tomorrow. I don't want to have to deal with that. I don't want to have to, honestly, my mind races continuously. So it was about trying to build things that would long lastingly try to take effect. And sometimes. seeing the bigger, I had to see the bigger picture.

I mean like, okay, a walk, it's probably gonna make me feel cold right now, it's not gonna help me whatsoever, but the second, the third, the fourth walk, and the fifth walk in that week, me. Yeah. But if I don't do this first one, that fifth or sixth is never gonna happen. And it was, It was things like that.

And like, you know, journaling doesn't necessarily always work for me. It works on and off for me. It's, I'm not saying it's, there's no thing that fixes it all. You have to figure out, you know, sometimes it was, you know, I'd lost my will to dance, for example, you know, I've been teaching dance, I can dance before I could walk.

It was, you know, put music on and for just, even if it's a side song, dance it out. Like, even if it's just for 10 minutes, move yourself, move, movement creates emotion. Like that's what it was. I wasn't maybe moving myself enough or doing something. So for me, it was physically moving. Yeah. I was like, you, you gotta get, move on, excuse my language, but yeah, that's

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And I think also it's habit stacking, isn't it? Like when it comes to, you know, whether it's like your mood is like suffering or whether you're going through something like depression. So I remember having this conversation with someone who's in a really good place now and I said like, Yeah. Yeah. you know, what did you do?

Same question to you. And it was literally, her answer was habit stacking. Those little habits. And it's so hard to habit stack when you're in that moment, I'm sure.

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There'll be some days that you're going to pat yourself on the back because you did all your f ing to do list. Like, there's going to be, Every day. And the thing is, is being kind enough to yourself. Like if I, if I lied on the sofa and watched like a film, don't feel bad about it. What are you feeling bad about?

This is, it's your timings. It's your, like, you are in charge. Like it's okay. If you start to do it back to back to back, that's where the problem lies. So allow yourself a little bit, but know when it needs to stop. Like when I have a really, really bad day, like, and this is what I've learned from my depression is remind, so the key element is everything shall pass.

Yeah, everything shall pass. Where there's dark, there will be light. Where there's light, there will be dark. Where there's an up, there's a down. Like, nothing lasts forever. Yeah. And that kind of also reminded me, like, I had to keep reminding myself, this dark hole that I'm feeling cannot last forever.

Because there was points that there was joy in my life. Like, that cannot be the rest of my life. Like, that's not how it's gonna be. Yeah. And when you remind yourself, like, of that. That to me, because what I didn't realize is because I had anxiety anyway, so even more prone to having depression. But it's tackling that.

When I started to understand my anxiety, because once I started to tackle my anxiety, my depression started to lift ever so slightly because my depression was stacked on top of my anxiety. So tackling that. I read a lot of books about trying to understand. Anxiety, you know, where does it come from? It's your fear of the unknown.

It's that lack of safety. Yeah. And, you know, I used to think that my cleaning was helping my anxiety. No, I clean because of my anxiety. It was the other way around actually. Like, it's, I used to be like, Oh, this will help my anxiety. No, no, you're doing it because you've got anxiety. Alex knows when there's something up because you start to organise cupboards as if it's going out of fashion.

You're like, you need, because it's that. need for being able to not necessarily control what I start to realize it's safe. I know how to do that. Yeah. Whereas like when my brain gets into, I call it fluffy days. Yeah. So I start fluffy days. When I have fluffy days, I can't concentrate. Yeah. Everything's muddled.

But the thing I do know how to do is how to stack a cupboard, or how to clean, or how to do something.

[: 00:33:20

[00:33:23] Anj: it? You're being productive without having done any of the other things. So I think a lot of it was like, reading, like it sounds really silly, but actually reading into anxiety, reading into like, you know, where does depression come from?

And that, that, like, really helped. Like, I, I didn't realise that, like, I thought my itchiness was always down to my maxima. Like, I'm always, you know, I scratch my hands quite a lot. And actually, you know, it's my anxiety, it's skin picking. Yeah. I didn't, but until you recognise and you start to put two and two together, you're like, oh, you know.

things of why did I react to certain arguments in a certain way? And you start to learn more about each other, one another. If you're not going to pick up that book to read and find out more about yourself, how can you expect anyone else to help you? You have to help yourself first. Yeah. And

[: 00:34:02

Obviously it's ongoing. I know. When I said that question, I was like, actually,

[: 00:34:08

No, I'm in a very good place. Yeah. And that's even with having like dodgy weekends here and there, like fluffy days. I still get my fluffy days, but I understand my anxiety. What, you know, also triggers, you know, having learned what triggered it today. Like, What I would burst out and just maybe shout sometimes get really angry or get really sad about something about the simplest thing somebody else has done that they don't know.

Why is that bothering me? So it's taking a step back. I'm like, why is that my trigger? But why is that bugging me? And picking up on those things. Okay, when that happens, how do you self soothe yourself? So it's understanding that. And am I, am I any, am I good at it? I don't know. I don't think I'm learning.

But that journey, that initial journey of like the divorce part, like that depression that came with that. I mean, like I've still not passed ever talking about losing Shivani. I still don't really ever probably should get some counselling for that. But yeah, I'd say probably about a year or so. I also do that depression like stint.

I got signed off work for a month. I did a solo trip, so I went off to Greece for a week by myself. Yeah. Drove around by myself, ate dinner by myself, started to learn to be okay in my own company.

[: 00:35:28

[00:35:35] Anj: It was, like sitting there in a restaurant, like, again, like, By yourself eating and there was other people like staring. I just thought, okay, like going to going somewhere to sit down and have a drink by yourself, like fly to another country as well. And what I realized is I do actually miss sharing that with people.

So like, you know, I'd FaceTime my mum or, you know, I would share that like with my sister or my mummy or a friend or, you know, friends or something like that. So there was a lot of, it wasn't just one thing. I think bearing in mind, like you said, habit stacking is a good one, like building a small thing that can increase.

[: 00:36:05

[00:36:05] Anj: like Going for a five minute walk every day. That's it. Just commit to five minutes. Commit, or even worse, commit to a hundred steps outside. Yeah. Break it down, make it really small. Next time I'm going to do 110, 120. Eventually you'll be doing a thousand steps without realizing it. And it's, it's not taking on the, I have to now journal.

I need to now go for a walk. I now need to do this because I think there's so much out there with social media that do all of these things and you'll feel great.

[: 00:36:29

[00:36:31] Anj: pick one thing. Yeah. Just one thing. Yeah. Break it down and do it just for the next. A few weeks, just come make, come rain or shine, one thing, cause if you break it down like that, Oh, I can do a hundred steps.

That's not a problem.

[: 00:36:44

That's just, it's not going to happen all of a sudden because it doesn't also feel nervous system. It feels overwhelming. It doesn't feel safe. You know, if you, I, I always feel like when people say to me, like, how'd you get outside your comfort zone? How do you take these big leaps? Actually. I think that like taking really small steps leads to really big leaps and people don't understand that.

And I think if you try and do something that's like so far outside your comfort zone, you're not going to do it because your ego is going to go crazy and be like, exactly, unsafe in your body doing

[: 00:37:38

if I'm allowed to do that, but like genuinely it was, you know, she was like, you got to start feeling comfortable in the uncomfortable, you know, as a content creator, I get invited to events where I have to go on my own. I hate it. I hate it. Absolutely hate it. I look at my phone until I see a familiar face and I'm like, you know, having cold showers, but, and you're right, you see social media of like, these guys are waking up at 5am going to the gym and doing that.

That is through a process of breaking small things down because I went through this, like, you know, I moved to Cardiff about two years ago and I was like, I'm going to become a morning person. Yeah. Morning person, yay. And it was, I'm going to become a morning person, I'm going to drink like a litre of water, I'm going to go to the gym.

And I sat down and I was like, you managed it for two days and do you know why? And I was like, no, and he was like, because you're trying to do it all. It's too much. How about you just get up at 6am, that's it, that's the achievement. And I was like, yeah. He was so right. I was like, I need to break this down.

Eventually that, that's become a habit. Like now going back to like waking up at 6am is doable. Yeah. All of a sudden now I had the capacity to go to the gym in the morning. Yeah. What do you do? I mean, it's taken me like two years to get to that point, but I was like, and I get up at six and I go to the gym at half six.

Wow. Like that's happened. Yeah. Now can I fit in? Like it's got to be. What?

[: 00:38:53

[00:39:05] Anj: I mean, you've got to get eight hours of sleep.

Yeah. But you've got to work all night to get your business up and running. You also, in my case, I have a stepson, you know, you've got to keep the child alive. I mean, that's granted if you have kids, you've got to keep them alive. You've also then got to, you know, do a good skincare. do my good skincare. Do my weekly hair care.

But then I also need myself a lot of getting my nails done, which aren't done right now. And then keeping up with the eyelashes, also keeping up with the waxing and the lasering that comes with that. But I also need to drink a gallon of water because, you know, I need that for my skin. I also need to do my meal preps to make sure that I've eaten every single day like properly.

I then need to make sure I get my 10, 000 steps and whilst I'm also going to the gym and doing other things. I need to work on my side hustle as well as my day job. I need to make sure that I'm a good partner to, to, you know, to, to that. Then also, you know, have you checked into your friends, have you checked in on all those friends that are doing okay today and have you in a new therapy session?

I mean, I'm just tired of listening to you. Have you done all those things? No. Have you done one thing? It's overwhelming. I know. It's actually like, so if you have a messy home, you're a terrible homekeeper, you can't cook, you know, you're a terrible wife. If you don't, I mean, the children you have to keep alive.

That's not an option. regardless, you know, I get a lot, well, you have 50 percent where you don't have a child. Yeah. But that 50 percent is full with everything else. I just can't tell otherwise. And I'm not saying it's hard or easy, mother or no mother. Like, you know, if you, if you don't have children, I've been through a period where I don't have children.

It's the, you know, keep yourself alive, keep yourself hydrated, go to the gym. Get those 10, 000 steps and do that routine. Journal on top of that, journaling, meditation,

[: 00:40:35

[00:40:35] Anj: Yeah. Do, do that stretching that you need to do. Find the time to meditate. The Pilates, find the meditating, find the, find the everything.

Yeah. And it's a bit like, Honestly, sometimes I write the list of all the things I want to do and I get tired of like the list is going away and I'm like

[: 00:40:50

[00:40:52] Anj: it. Just from that. So, no, it is true, but then I suppose I'm starting to look at that and be like, okay, all of those things are actually relative to all the others.

One will come after another, right? And it's not all at once. Like, okay, so my nails are not done. Fine. Is the, is, is half the ironing not done? No, it's not done. Okay. But the other half is done. Yeah. That's a start. You know, it's, it's all this thing is, it's, it's, I'm saying this because I need to listen to myself and I'm not just saying this to the listeners.

I'm probably saying it to myself. You need to learn to be kinder to yourself a little bit at some point. but it, it, look, it is, is difficult. Like I, you can use social media in two ways. You can use it to demotivate yourself or motivate yourself. And the thing is, I often, I often say, you know, I've had I've had messages, you know, I'm very lucky, I get very positive messages on Insta, but then, you know, there's the odd occasion of you making me feel bad.

Hold up a minute, I'm not making you feel bad, you're feeling bad. Yeah, you're making yourself feel bad. And the thing is, if you find Instagram is a trigger, and at some points it was for me, mute it. Mute, mute the things that are not good for you at that point, you know. There was a Because you know, I used to get, oh, I'm getting divorced and I can't see marriages on, on, on Instagram.

That wasn't the same for me. I didn't have no problem with that. Yeah. But my advice to her was, okay, well, if you can't see it, mute it. Mute it. Well, I'm hollow. Because everything's in your control. Like, there was a period where I was feeling really bad that I wasn't doing my 6am wake up. So I couldn't watch other people do their sexier wake up calls.

I muted because you're just making me feel bad. but I had to, the thing is, it's not just, oh, they're making me feel bad. It's why are they making me feel bad? I had to take a step back and take accountability for why I was feeling bad because I wasn't achieving what I wanted. I was seeing others do it.

So then I went back and unmuted and be like, well, if they're doing it, I can do

[: 00:42:32

[00:42:52] Anj: So what have

[: 00:42:53

[00:42:53] Anj: do to make it happen? And always remember social media is just like, you know, obviously, and I share a lot on social media, you know, a lot about my life. It's still 10 percent of what you see. Are you going to see the weekend breakdown? I just had probably not like, you know, you'll, you'll see parts of it, you know, And that's the thing, you know, people are really surprised when I talk about my divorce because they thought I had like, you know, this picture perfect marriage, I suppose, and this is why I'm very much a believer of reality versus Instagram, like, there's got to be a balance.

I love taking my beautiful pictures, but I really love showing you how on

[: 00:43:23

[00:43:42] Anj: People are going to showcase their best moments. We all do it. Like, You know, I'll do it when I want to, but it's, it's always remembering, right? You know, people always say, are you an influencer or content creator? And I was a categorically content creator because my aim isn't to influence anyone. It's people wanting to be influenced.

That's their choice, you know? And again, you have the choice to be influenced by somebody. If you, if you see somebody getting up at 6am you want to do, go and do it. Yeah. But then that's upon you. You have to set that intent from the beginning. When I first started sharing some of my, like, morning, and to relapsed at the moment.

I'm, I'm not getting my sex free. I love that word. I've lapsed. I'm up at seven in the morning at the moment, and I, but I will be getting back to that. And it's the same, you know, like I shared that I have cold showers. Like I've turned my shower up to 30 seconds. And that was all very much of making myself comfortable in the uncomfortable.

Having a cold shower is really frigging uncomfortable. Yeah. So, Like, again, if you see somebody else doing it and you want it, the thing is a want has to be enough to do it. That want has to come from your conscience because it looks great, or because they're achieving a lot, like, in a day. Is it worth you getting a bus exam?

Yeah. Do you have something you want to work on before your work day? Or is it just because you're seeing everybody else doing it that you think you should be doing it?

[: 00:44:51

Because I think sometimes, and I've I've done this in the past where I've thought I want certain things because I've seen other people have it. Oh yeah. And I'm like, actually, this isn't really me. This isn't really my vibe. Like this doesn't align with me. This doesn't feel good. So now I just take everything back to, hang on a minute.

Is this completely aligned? Do I want this? Or is it because, like, is it, is it our internal FOMO? Or our ego just saying to us, actually, this is what you think you are? Correct.

[: 00:45:28

Yeah, exactly. I think we normalise. Yes, work. If you want that side hustle and you want that, like, you, you, that's the life that you want. Yeah. work on your 16 week on, but it's also absolutely fine just to do a normal day. Like to have a normal job and to sit at home. Yeah. And do a nine to five if you're happy with that.

And watch the TV. It's absolutely fine. But it's, it's you looking at something, asking yourself, am I actually happy with this? Or is somebody else making me that what I'm seeing on social media, making me feel bad about it? Yeah. Am I genuinely happy with it? Or if there, if it is making me feel unhappy, is that because there's something unfulfilled?

And if it's unfulfilled, How'd you feel it? That's up to you to

[: 00:46:13

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. And where can everyone find you online if they want to chat with you? Because I'm sure they will want to.

[: 00:46:40

Lookbook, and I'm also obviously on TikTok and YouTube, and website is coming soon. Thank you.